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mQqySz8Ihho.vtt
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WEBVTT
1
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<v Speaker 1>I've been trying to think about the </v>
<v Speaker 1>story of Sodom and Gomorrah in </v>
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<v Speaker 1>relationship to modern sexual confusion,</v>
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00:00:09.590 --> 00:00:12.710
<v Speaker 1>so this is what I see happening on the </v>
<v Speaker 1>social justice front,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>let's say on the one hand since the 19 </v>
<v Speaker 1>sixties and probably as a consequence of</v>
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<v Speaker 1>the birth control pill,</v>
<v Speaker 1>but other factors as well.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>There's been tremendous stress placed on</v>
<v Speaker 1>sexual liberation and so there's this </v>
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<v Speaker 1>idea that I think is associated in large</v>
<v Speaker 1>part right now with the radical left of </v>
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<v Speaker 1>total sexual freedom,</v>
<v Speaker 1>but at the same time there's increasing </v>
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<v Speaker 1>emphasis from exactly the same sources </v>
<v Speaker 1>on restricting sexual interaction.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>So you see this in the campuses,</v>
<v Speaker 1>for example,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>where increasingly particularly </v>
<v Speaker 1>heterosexual contact is regulated by a </v>
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<v Speaker 1>doctrine that says you have to get </v>
<v Speaker 1>spoken permission for every move in the </v>
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<v Speaker 1>mating process.</v>
<v Speaker 1>And so you see,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>and I know I'm not expressing myself </v>
<v Speaker 1>very well,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>but there seems to be in our current </v>
<v Speaker 1>culture,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>there seems to be massive sexual </v>
<v Speaker 1>confusion.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>It's,</v>
<v Speaker 1>it's some weird combination of extreme </v>
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<v Speaker 1>libertinism and extreme authoritarian </v>
<v Speaker 1>attitudes towards sexuality and and </v>
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<v Speaker 1>obviously in the story of Sodom.</v>
<v Speaker 1>Part of what's happening happening and </v>
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<v Speaker 1>is that sex impulsive?</v>
<v Speaker 1>Sexual gratification trumps everything.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>It's something like that.</v>
<v Speaker 1>I mean I know there's more to what's </v>
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<v Speaker 1>going on in Sodom than that,</v>
<v Speaker 1>but there's certainly that and so.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>Well,</v>
<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to figure out what to say </v>
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<v Speaker 1>about that tonight because there's a.</v>
<v Speaker 1>there's a lesson in there.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>The lesson is something like,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>don't let sexuality,</v>
<v Speaker 1>don't let impulsive sexuality get the </v>
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<v Speaker 1>upper hand.</v>
<v Speaker 1>It's something like that or all hell </v>
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<v Speaker 1>will break loose,</v>
<v Speaker 1>which I actually happen to agree with </v>
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<v Speaker 1>because one of the things that we </v>
<v Speaker 1>haven't been able to talk about in our </v>
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<v Speaker 1>culture I think is let's take the idea </v>
<v Speaker 1>of the phenomena of aids aids mutated to</v>
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<v Speaker 1>take advantage of promiscuous sexuality </v>
<v Speaker 1>and that's just nothing.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>You never hear that publicized.</v>
<v Speaker 1>You know,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>people had associated aids with </v>
<v Speaker 1>homosexuality and there was a reason for</v>
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<v Speaker 1>that because it's much more easily </v>
<v Speaker 1>transmitted as a consequence of </v>
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<v Speaker 1>homosexual sex than heterosexual sex </v>
<v Speaker 1>because the anus is a much more delicate</v>
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<v Speaker 1>physiological structure.</v>
<v Speaker 1>It's not as robust and it can be much </v>
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<v Speaker 1>more easily damaged and and,</v>
<v Speaker 1>and with with disease resulting as a </v>
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<v Speaker 1>consequence,</v>
<v Speaker 1>but it isn't only the manner of sexual </v>
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<v Speaker 1>action.</v>
<v Speaker 1>That's the issue,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>it's also the fact that promiscuity </v>
<v Speaker 1>provided the evolutionary platform for </v>
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<v Speaker 1>the aids virus to mutate into a very </v>
<v Speaker 1>into the form that it finally took and </v>
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<v Speaker 1>it was only through by the skin of our </v>
<v Speaker 1>teeth that we escaped a totalizing </v>
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<v Speaker 1>plague.</v>
<v Speaker 1>You know,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>had that emerged 100 years ago.</v>
<v Speaker 1>God only knows how many people would </v>
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<v Speaker 1>have died.</v>
<v Speaker 1>It was.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>AIDS was unbelievably so.</v>
<v Speaker 1>I know that's a mishmash of ideas and </v>
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<v Speaker 1>I'm not exactly sure how to see my way </v>
<v Speaker 1>clear through it,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>but there is a clear warning in that </v>
<v Speaker 1>story about,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>about something,</v>
<v Speaker 1>about something to do with,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>with,</v>
<v Speaker 1>with sexual inequity,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>but in the Bible that sexuality has to </v>
<v Speaker 2>two Poles that define it and it's pretty</v>
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<v Speaker 2>clear.</v>
<v Speaker 2>One,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>what inside is reproduction and the </v>
<v Speaker 2>other side is we could,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>let's say Rick Creation.</v>
<v Speaker 2>Okay,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>so those are the two poles of sexuality </v>
<v Speaker 2>in a normal word.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>So it's not just for reproduction and </v>
<v Speaker 2>it's not just for recreation.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>It's both.</v>
<v Speaker 2>You're right.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>That was the idea.</v>
<v Speaker 2>I mean,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>it's a natural idea.</v>
<v Speaker 2>Now,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>if you,</v>
<v Speaker 2>if there's a balance there that should </v>
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<v Speaker 2>be had,</v>
<v Speaker 2>if you lose this balance and they become</v>
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<v Speaker 2>just about reproduction,</v>
<v Speaker 2>that's a problem and they fed.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>It becomes just about recreation.</v>
<v Speaker 2>That's another problem.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>Yup.</v>
<v Speaker 2>Okay.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>It's not that complicated really,</v>
<v Speaker 2>but it's so politically incorrect to </v>
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<v Speaker 2>talk about these things even though </v>
<v Speaker 2>they're obvious.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>Well that nobody dares you talk about </v>
<v Speaker 2>it.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>The thing is is that the most difficult </v>
<v Speaker 1>things to talk about are the things that</v>
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<v Speaker 1>are obvious because when they're obvious</v>
<v Speaker 1>you don't have to talk about them and so</v>
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<v Speaker 1>then when people start to question the </v>
<v Speaker 1>obvious,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>you don't know what to say,</v>
<v Speaker 1>so.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>So for example,</v>
<v Speaker 1>we would.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking about the slut walks and so</v>
<v Speaker 1>women go out and they dress very </v>
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<v Speaker 1>provocatively and they go out and </v>
<v Speaker 1>manifest their right to be as </v>
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<v Speaker 1>provocative as they possibly can be </v>
<v Speaker 1>without being interfered with.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>And I have some sympathy for that </v>
<v Speaker 1>perspective because it seems to me </v>
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<v Speaker 1>appropriate for women to be.</v>
<v Speaker 1>The final arbiter is in sexual contact,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>but on the other hand,</v>
<v Speaker 1>it also,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>it's that whole exercise is blind to the</v>
<v Speaker 1>fact that clothing,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>for example,</v>
<v Speaker 1>has communicative intent</v>
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<v Speaker 3>and that</v>
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<v Speaker 1>people broadcast their invitation to </v>
<v Speaker 1>sexual congress in a million ways,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>subtle and not so subtle,</v>
<v Speaker 1>and you can't just say,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>I have the right to broadcast myself in </v>
<v Speaker 1>any manner possible and be completely,</v>
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<v Speaker 3>um,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>can,</v>
<v Speaker 1>can,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>can be completely immune from the </v>
<v Speaker 1>consequences.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>There's something wrong with that.</v>
<v Speaker 1>And with regards to basic sexual </v>
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<v Speaker 1>morality,</v>
<v Speaker 1>no,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>I've read things about like slut shaming</v>
<v Speaker 1>is that the more radical feminist types,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>for example,</v>
<v Speaker 1>claim that women shouldn't be held </v>
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<v Speaker 1>responsible for their sexual behavior in</v>
<v Speaker 1>some sense.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>It shouldn't be held against them.</v>
<v Speaker 1>How many men they've slept with,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>et cetera.</v>
<v Speaker 1>But then I think,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>well,</v>
<v Speaker 1>you'd never recommend to someone that </v>
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<v Speaker 1>they laid down naked on the,</v>
<v Speaker 1>on the side of the street with their </v>
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<v Speaker 1>legs spread and invite anybody who walks</v>
<v Speaker 1>by to partake of the opportunity.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>Everyone would regard that as </v>
<v Speaker 1>inappropriate,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>I think without question.</v>
<v Speaker 1>And so what that indicates is that some </v>
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<v Speaker 1>degree of sexual propriety is both </v>
<v Speaker 1>normative,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>unethical.</v>
<v Speaker 1>And then of course you can start asking </v>
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<v Speaker 1>yourself about what that degree of </v>
<v Speaker 1>social sexual propriety should be.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>And it does have something to do with </v>
<v Speaker 1>getting the balance between reproduction</v>
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<v Speaker 1>and recreation.</v>
<v Speaker 1>Right?</v>
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<v Speaker 2>Well,</v>
<v Speaker 2>the thing is,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>even in the Bible,</v>
<v Speaker 2>there's the two aspects.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>Some stories are about just this aspect </v>
<v Speaker 2>in.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>There are the most strange stories in </v>
<v Speaker 2>the Bible.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>For example,</v>
<v Speaker 2>the story of Tamar is one of those.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>So,</v>
<v Speaker 2>uh,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if you're familiar with </v>
<v Speaker 2>that story,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>but it's tough.</v>
<v Speaker 2>It's in the,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>it's,</v>
<v Speaker 2>it's intercut with the story of Joseph </v>
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<v Speaker 2>in Egypt and it's essentially a,</v>
<v Speaker 2>it says that Judah had children with </v>
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<v Speaker 2>some woman and I think it's a stranger.</v>
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't necessarily say so,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>but it,</v>
<v Speaker 2>it seems like that's what it is.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>And then the sons die off.</v>
<v Speaker 2>And then there's this woman called Tamar</v>
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<v Speaker 2>and she disguises herself as a </v>
<v Speaker 2>prostitute.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>Great.</v>
<v Speaker 2>And she has a kid with Judah himself.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>So all of the symbols heard that story.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>Elements of his clothing.</v>
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>Damage</v>
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<v Speaker 2>as a,</v>
<v Speaker 2>as a bride.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.</v>
<v Speaker 2>Essentially</v>
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<v Speaker 1>he wants to indicate later that he's the</v>
<v Speaker 1>one who slept with.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>Yeah,</v>
<v Speaker 2>yeah,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>yeah.</v>
<v Speaker 2>So that story is about the necessity,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>the need for the recreative part of </v>
<v Speaker 2>sexuality.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>It's all about that symbolism.</v>
<v Speaker 2>It's all about the seat.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>It's all about incest,</v>
<v Speaker 2>it's all about death and it's the idea </v>
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<v Speaker 2>is it's to raise the dead.</v>
<v Speaker 2>Okay.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>It's not clear in the story,</v>
<v Speaker 2>but if you understand,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>if you understand the imagery,</v>
<v Speaker 2>that's what it's about.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>It's about regressing back to an error </v>
<v Speaker 2>that was made.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>Okay.</v>
<v Speaker 2>And raising the dead.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>So I don't want to get into it.</v>
<v Speaker 2>But it's just the idea that in the Bible</v>
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<v Speaker 2>there's both to the hearse reproduction </v>
<v Speaker 2>and there's recreation and the </v>
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<v Speaker 2>recreation is renewal.</v>
<v Speaker 2>There's the renewal.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>Sexuality is about renewal too.</v>
<v Speaker 2>But that aspect of the symbolism is,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>is pretty.</v>
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to say obscure because it's</v>
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<v Speaker 2>actually right there if you can see it,</v>
<v Speaker 2>but it's strange.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>I'll say it like that.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>Strange.</v>
<v Speaker 1>Okay.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>So now another element of this might be </v>
<v Speaker 1>the fact that in modern identity </v>
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<v Speaker 1>politics,</v>
<v Speaker 1>sexual choice is a canonical identifier </v>
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<v Speaker 1>and that also seems to me to be </v>
<v Speaker 1>something wrong about that.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>Like one of the things I've seen </v>
<v Speaker 1>happening in Toronto,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure it's the same in Montreal,</v>
<v Speaker 1>is that,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>and I'm going to do this awkwardly,</v>
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to put this awkwardly because </v>
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<v Speaker 1>I haven't been able to sort through it </v>
<v Speaker 1>properly.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>Um,</v>
<v Speaker 1>pride week,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>Pride Day has turned into pride week and</v>
<v Speaker 1>that's turned into pride month and I </v>
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<v Speaker 1>think that seems to me to be pushing </v>
<v Speaker 1>against some kind of limit because the </v>
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<v Speaker 1>first question that I have is like I was</v>
<v Speaker 1>reading this book the other day by a </v>
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<v Speaker 1>friend of mine from Ottawa who's a gay </v>
<v Speaker 1>conservative and he said he had a lot </v>
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<v Speaker 1>harder time coming out as a conservative</v>
<v Speaker 1>then he had as coming out as gay and he </v>
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<v Speaker 1>talked about the degree to which </v>
<v Speaker 1>homosexuals were persecuted in Canada </v>
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<v Speaker 1>before say the 19 eighties.</v>
<v Speaker 1>And it's quite,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>it makes quite a harsh reading,</v>
<v Speaker 1>let's say.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>And so and so fair enough to the,</v>
<v Speaker 1>to the civil rights movement,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>let's say it,</v>
<v Speaker 1>that,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>that has brought homosexuality into the </v>
<v Speaker 1>norm or that into the mainstream.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>Maybe that's one way of thinking about </v>
<v Speaker 1>it,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>but that conversation still has a </v>
<v Speaker 1>tremendous amount of development.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>That's necessary because I don't </v>
<v Speaker 1>understand exactly,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>it isn't obvious to me what integration </v>
<v Speaker 1>into the mainstream precisely means </v>
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<v Speaker 1>because a lot,</v>
<v Speaker 1>there's been a lot of talk so far about</v>
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<v Speaker 1>respecting the rights of gay people,</v>
<v Speaker 1>but very little talk about what the </v>
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<v Speaker 1>accompanying responsibilities might be.</v>
<v Speaker 1>Not Actually,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>it seems to me to be a problem and I </v>
<v Speaker 1>mean I just had a letter from,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>from Guy Gay guy who has been wrestling </v>
<v Speaker 1>with this because he's not sure how to </v>
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<v Speaker 1>be gay and to be ethical at the same </v>
<v Speaker 1>time,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>you know,</v>
<v Speaker 1>because he sees part of normative </v>
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<v Speaker 1>behavior is taking wife and having </v>
<v Speaker 1>children and not and can see the value </v>
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<v Speaker 1>in that,</v>
<v Speaker 1>but that's certainly not the direction </v>
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<v Speaker 1>of his proclivity.</v>
<v Speaker 1>And so we wrote,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>wrote to me asking me what he should do </v>
<v Speaker 1>and you know,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>I don't have an answer for that.</v>
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what the answer to that is,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>but I know that it might be something </v>
<v Speaker 1>that would be worth talking about and </v>
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<v Speaker 1>it's part of this current confusion </v>
<v Speaker 1>about sexual identity and sexual </v>
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<v Speaker 1>pleasure and,</v>
<v Speaker 1>and well even gender identity for that </v>
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<v Speaker 1>matter.</v>
<v Speaker 1>So.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>All right,</v>
<v Speaker 1>so your idea was,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>well the balance between recreation and </v>
<v Speaker 1>reproduction had gone,</v>
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<v Speaker 1>was completely absent inside of it was </v>
<v Speaker 1>all recreation.</v>
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<v Speaker 1>It was all instant gratification.</v>
<v Speaker 1>Impulse.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.</v>
<v Speaker 2>And that's why it's put in contrast with</v>
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<v Speaker 2>the Abraham bit because it's the same </v>
<v Speaker 2>angels,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>but in that case he,</v>
<v Speaker 2>he says you'll have a son this time next</v>
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<v Speaker 2>year,</v>
<v Speaker 2>so it's the reproduction part is there,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>but when he gets to the bottom,</v>
<v Speaker 2>it's not there anymore.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>It's only the recreation part.</v>
<v Speaker 2>Okay.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>So yeah,</v>
<v Speaker 2>so they're,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>they're,</v>
<v Speaker 2>they're meant to be contested.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>Those two stores actually in the story </v>
<v Speaker 2>of Abraham,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>it's pretty clear he,</v>
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if this will make sense </v>
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<v Speaker 2>because when the angels come it,</v>
<v Speaker 2>it says,</v>
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<v Speaker 2>um,</v>
<v Speaker 2>he washes their feet and then he feeds </v>
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<v Speaker 2>them.</v>
<v Speaker 2>Okay.</v>
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<v Speaker 2>That's actually the recreation and </v>
<v Speaker 2>reproduction part that not in terms of </v>
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<v Speaker 2>sexuality,</v>
<v Speaker 2>but it's in terms of meaning the </v>